Langley Book Group - Second Meeting

Book Groups

We invited 34 book groups across the U.S. and Canada to meet and discuss The Church of All Ages and its implications for their worship, and to share their notes here.
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Report from Timothy McCarthy's book group in Langley, British Columbia:

At this meeting, our discussion revolved around Chapters 5 (Intergenerational Culture), 6 (Story) and 7 (Preaching to All Ages).

In the church where Janice (Creative Arts Director) serves, a high value is placed on "knowing the Word," which means that Sunday worship is definitely an "adult Bible classroom," centered on a 50 minute sermon. Lindy (children's director) expressed her agreement that clarifying the purpose of Sunday worship is essential to moving toward an intergenerational culture. In Cyndi's (worship pastor) church, there are many different opinions about the purpose of our worship gatherings, and just as many opinions regarding the presence of children; most discussion revolves around whether children will be bored, or distracting to others. Cyndi argued for "raising the bar," equipping children to aspire to full participation in congregational worship, through other contexts such as family worship. But for Tim, this raised the question: "How will families be equipped to worship together at home if the church never does it when it gathers?" Cyndi asked, "How can we ensure that each generation (children, seniors, young adults) walks away touched by God in some way during the service, not feeling like they always have to defer to another generation's way of connecting?" Janice expressed the difficulty in her church of getting the pastoral staff and other teachers to adapt to a more intergenerational approach in their services. Tim commented that whatever the necessary changes may be, they need to occur, not just to placate certain individuals or to be more inclusive in a general sense, but on the basis of solid teaching about being the church.

This led us into discussing the concept of Story as foundational to meaningful intergenerational interaction. Janice has used congregational members' stories in worship for a while, but is learning now that a meaningful story doesn't always need to be edited to fit the service theme - something that often robs the story of its humanity. In the university chapel, Tim has introduced "Christ in the Commons" and "Last Lecture" Series as opportunities for alumni or faculty to share part of the story of their faith journey. Friday Praise Chapels are based on a Lectionary that aims to lead the community through an experience of the whole gospel story as they participate throughout the year.

Finally, we discussed some of the challenges and requirements involved in "preaching to all generations." Tim mentioned that in his experience, the dialogue style requires a much higher degree of preparation and knowledge about the topic, for the sake of guiding the conversation purposefully. Lindy suggested that sermons be followed up by a "talk-back" with one or two congregational members who are responding, out of their own story, to what they have heard. Cyndi asked, "What if a person has a question about what they have heard?" Tim heard one sermon series recently by a well-known pastor where he and his wife fielded questions immediately after the sermon. Janice mentioned the fear of losing control of the situation; yet sometimes the "cringe stories" (the ones that are clumsy, not slick) are the ones most meaningful to people, because of their raw humanity.

As we wrapped up, Cyndi expressed some significant questions that have been raised in her mind: How do we combat the entitlement that any particular generation feels regarding how worship should happen on Sunday morning? How can we help everyone defer towards one another, instead of just one generation toward another? How can we promise each person that they will receive something they connect with, even if it's not all the time, while we also help them to adapt and widen their own palates as they experience many different ways of connecting with God?

In a later conversation with Dave (worship leader and music teacher) and Dave (university professor), the discussion centered around the need to trust the Word to speak. In other words, our dependence on long sermons (which alienates children, not to mention others) places a high value on information. But if worship is more accurately an experience of intimacy with God, then perhaps we should give people an opportunity to just listen to the text of Scripture, with brief comments and observations. This leaves room for other kinds of intimate encounters with God as well, especially the Lord's Table, which is inherently experiential and can be meaningful for children and adults alike. We struggled with where to provide the education and information that people desire, if it is not to be in Sunday worship. Tim mentioned "Secret Church", an effort by The Church at Brook Hills in Birmingham, to educate people in depth about their Bible. Finally (and this seems to summarize the feeling in both conversations), Dave expressed his enjoyment of the book, but expressed the question on all of our minds - "How do we turn around this big ship that seems to be driven to facilitate worship on the basis of meeting the individual's tastes?" What's needed is a clarification of ecclesiology, which is so difficult to do in any community!

Vancouver Book Group - Third Meeting

Book Groups

We invited 34 book groups across the U.S. and Canada to meet and discuss The Church of All Ages and its implications for their worship, and to share their notes here.
Learn more

Report from Edna Grenz' book group in Vancouver, British Columbia:

We focused on the last 4 chapters.
General consensus: the contents of chapter 7 had as much of a focus on scripture reading as on preaching. We appreciate the emphasis on the importance of the public reading of scripture.
Brian: in preparing for a talk for children grades 1-7, he was aware that if he were giving the same talk (sermon) to adults, his outline would have been no different. He had to be sure of the core or the ‘bottom line’ of the sermon in order to communicate it well to children. Distilling a sermon so that children would understand would make it understandable to all ages. Katie was present at the ‘children’s talk’ that Brian gave and added that if the 3 points of a sermon were that clear and re-iterated as often as with the children, she would remember sermons throughout the week.

All found chapter 8 interesting and it raised various questions. Edna expressed appreciation for the foundational focus of worship as being God-centered (as opposed to consumerist or performance –oriented). Andrea observed that the church study revealed what many of us already know to be true: people tend to stereo-type youth – ie. youth want a certain style of music, or that adults don’t like a certain style. The church discovered that passion for God is most important and that sermons and preaching style were more important than music issues.

Brian: why is this whole question of inter-generational even being raised? Hasn’t intergenerational worship been the biblical norm since the beginning of time? Is there now a fear of decline in church membership that motivates this study?
Other questions: Are we dealing with the fall-out of having bought into the whole consumerist mentality in our churches? What does faithful worship look like?
What is our motivation for trying to be inter-generational?
Andrea: the church study referred to capturing the “ allegiance” of youth to the church. (p.145) Should we not be more concerned about allegiance to Jesus Christ?
Brian and Andrea: churches should be authentic to who they are as well as who they are becoming. ie. Who has God called us to be? We can’t be something that we are not. Examples:
a church that insists on hiring a youth and children’s pastors when that is not their demographic; a church in a neighborhood with mostly young families and no where near a college to insist that they need a college ministry

Katie: observation that throughout the readings there is an emphasis on people needing to take responsibility for what happens after a worship service. (discussion groups, parents teaching children, etc)

Perhaps the challenge of the future will be, not how to keep the young people, but rather how to minister to the baby boomers who will soon form a large population of seniors.

The book is thought provoking and interesting and it has stimulated in us a desire to continue the conversation in our own worship contexts.

Toronto Book Group - Second Meeting

Book Groups

We invited 34 book groups across the U.S. and Canada to meet and discuss The Church of All Ages and its implications for their worship, and to share their notes here.
Learn more

Report from Andrew Donaldson's book group in Toronto, Ontario:

Common Ground: what defines a community? What shapes its faith?

The issue of how our congregational purposes play out in congregational strategies was still a big question. It led us to discuss what common practices we hold that shape us as communities in the first place. This yielded some deep-rooted differences not only between generations, but also members of the same generational cohort; not only between denominations, but also between churches in the same denominations in the different regions of Canada; and not only between congregations but also between faith communities and the wider world.

To begin with the last-named differences: Rev. Kristine O'Brien (who, you might remember, is my colleague at Trafalgar Presbyterian Church, Oakville) performs funerals as part of her ministry. We have often talked of the struggle to find common ground when people without a background in a community of faith try to give communal shape to a funeral service. She
finds that people don't know Psalm 23, or the Lord's Prayer; many people stop singing after the first line of 'Amazing Grace,' since that's as far as their memory takes them. What do you say in these situations? What do you pray? What do you sing?

What do we all know by heart that can connect us when we need to be part of a community? It's not only during times of passage and transition that people look for common ground. David said that, even though his own congregation within the Christian Reformed denomination might be less liturgical than others, still people have commented that it would be good to say a creed 'once in awhile,' and that his own goal as music and worship co-ordinator is to have a spoken creed once a month. Kristine said that Trafalgar Presbyterian we have been learning a body of songs - global songs, short choruses, songs from the Taizé and Iona communities - that are part of
our communal life. We have taken care to teach various versions of the Lord's Prayer, so that members of all ages can experience this prayer in their own way. Karin Schemeit described attending Martin Luther's church in Wittenberg, German, and being struck by the fact that the liturgy was identical to her family's German Lutheran Church in downtown Toronto. She said that it presented her with a struggle: she found the familiarity welcoming and grounding, but also wanted to be fed by something new as well.

The tug-of-war between old and new, and how that is reflected in the generations, occupied much of our discussion. Modes of dress, acceptable behaviour, what you should or should not bring into the sanctuary (coffee cups?), how people react to something new (or something old), what is acceptable as a topic for sermons (sex? money?), who should read scripture or be in leadership positions - all these are expressions of differing values in any one congregation.

Karen Pozios - and several others - said that bringing children to church was partly a generational choice. She went with her family: that's what you did when she was growing up. Some commented that now we find that it's the grandparents who are bringing the grandchildren.

Several things struck me that perhaps shouldn't have been surprising. The first was how similar all our struggles were, in spite of different denominational backgrounds. The second was how often people react differently from what we might expect. Karin said that she and her sister,
even though they are very close in age, hear and understand bible stories very differently from each other.

This led me to ask a seed question for our next meeting: how do our congregations tell our important stories? How do we hear and experience stories differently?

Strathroy Book Group - First Meeting

Book Groups

We invited 34 book groups across the U.S. and Canada to meet and discuss The Church of All Ages and its implications for their worship, and to share their notes here.
Learn more

Report from Peter Hoytema's book group in Strathroy, Ontario:

Key Concept: Worship practices reflect a congregation’s overall
commitment to being and becoming a Church of All Ages

As a starting point for our first formal discussion, we spent some time discussing the title and subtitle of the book. We noted that the subtitle, Generations Worshiping Together, highlights the single most important barometer—worship—that measures a congregation’s desire to be and become a Church of All Ages. Members of the group commented on the strategic role that worship plays in the overall witness and ministry of a local church in that worship both informs and reflects a multigenerational commitment. In other words, one of the key ways a congregation indicates the priority it places on being multigenerational is in its worship practices—by which members representing a spectrum of age and faith development are blessed and in which they participate. In this way, worship practices reflect underlying attitudes and commitments in the church.

But worship has a constructive as well as a reflective role in congregational life. As such, it calls the church to yield to the Holy Spirit’s ongoing work of communal transformation so that a greater commitment to becoming the Church of all Ages can become lived out in other aspects of congregational life. We spent some time discussing the extent to which we have found intergenerational worship done well. We noted that a number of churches that are often said to be “thriving” or “successful” are generationally segregated. Churches that foster a sense of mystery in worship (especially by liturgical practices that are multi-sensory) were identified as being particularly effective when it comes to connecting with individuals who represent a variety of faith development.

Members highlighted the definition of “intergenerational worship” found on page 11: “Intergenerational worship is worship in which people of every age are understood to be equally important. We discussed how this level of understanding is not limited to worship practices but must pervade everything in the church. Members commented on ways they have seen a variety of church activities “feed” intergenerational worship. Examples included:

• Post-worship coffee fellowship in which older people consistently decided not to mingle with their peers but made a point to get to know the young people of the church instead.

• Intentional consideration of individuals under 30 when selecting new office bearers, including a commitment to having older experienced leaders mentor those who are younger. One congregation’s commitment to this was borne out of its realization that some of the disciples of Jesus were probably teenagers when he called them (to substantiate this claim, please note their behavior in the gospels).

The general consensus in our group was that multigenerational ministry must be a commitment in a great deal of church activities. In this way, being a Church of all Ages will become a greater reality in the local church—one which will naturally and increasingly be reflected by generations worshiping together.

Davis Book Group - Second Meeting

Book Groups

We invited 34 book groups across the U.S. and Canada to meet and discuss The Church of All Ages and its implications for their worship, and to share their notes here.
Learn more

Report from Eric Dirksen's book group in Davis, California:

Key Question: If stories are important to us (and they are), what does worship look like that is "story driven?"

Our own stories are important to us, and sharing stories is something we continue to value, especially in worship. Shelly, a young mother of three, remembers her teen years and how stories from her mother seemed to draw them closer together. When her mother shared about her own past, even in the dreaded "when I was your age" format, Shelly recalls thinking, "My mom isn't an alien, she had similar struggles." Shannon remembered, almost as an epiphany, that she learned about faith before she considered herself a Christian through the stories of her Grandmother. "My Grandma would tell me stories of bad days, of struggles, of how it hadn't been a good week. But she always ended with, 'Yet I trust, Shannon, yet i trust.'" Shannon then commented, "I don't think I ever realized that before. My Grandma's faith, shared through her stories, was shaping me long before I ever thought." As we considered the importance of stories in our own lives, we started thinking about worship as story-telling.

We thought about story-telling, and how the stories we usually hear are those who seem to have it all figured out. "What about someone who is in the middle of something? What about someone who isn't quite so sure where they stand with God at the moment? Does their story have value too?" asked Scott. We talked about lament, about sharing struggles, and the songs we usually hear in worship. While we resonated deeply with the concept of worship including "the whole sweep of divine activity, past, present, and future" most of our group was hesitant to relate their own worship experiences in those terms. Much of the worship we have participated in, we agreed, seemed more focused on individuals rather than on God - much less the activity of God.