Mechanicsville Book Group - Third Meeting

Book Groups

We invited 34 book groups across the U.S. and Canada to meet and discuss The Church of All Ages and its implications for their worship, and to share their notes here.
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Report from Nancy Clark's book group in Mechanicsville, Virginia:

The group again gathered at a local bookstore to enjoy the coffee shop while discussing the final chapters of The Church of All Ages. Many of the ideas from the previous session carried over into this meeting.

There was much discussion about telling our stories and especially about experiences and ideas for helping our elderly share their story. A practical suggestion that could engage many ages was to invite the elderly to meet with a panel and share their memories of the story of the church to be recorded in some fashion. This could provide significant intergenerational opportunity. For example, older adults could facilitate and ask questions to encourage the memories to flow, young tech savvy adults could tape or create CD’s of the storytelling, young children could illustrate the story, … Ultimately, these efforts provide a means to reveal the power of God to new generations. This effort would provide special opportunities for the elderly to remember, recall, and be significant.

The importance of attending to all in the audience when using narrative and illustrations in preaching was discussed. Different ages may understand or misunderstand the same story. Children especially may grab hold of an illustration/story citing a mistake used to demonstrate a theological point without getting the theology. Care must be made to make the connection. Without the connection they may hear the behavior in the illustration as appropriate when in fact it is inappropriate. Examples were given of this.

Creating a diverse team to review worship plans and services and give input from the perspective of different ages and life situations can be helpful. This may broaden the audience that feels included in the worship and avoid getting stuck in the way it was done at one point in the history of the church. However, representatives from smaller churches wondered if this is really realistic with one pastor and a part time music director. Maybe it could be done occasionally.

Dialogue continued on planning and including all ages in worship. One pastor told of a recent occasion in which a grandfather and granddaughter sang together supported by the choir. This was an event the granddaughter in her 20’s will remember long after her elderly grandfather is gone. It was meaningful to all.

Collecting canned goods with the offering may make young people feel included. Children collecting special offerings like “Five Cents a Meal” is done in some churches. Ideas for including youth in worship were again discussed.

The churches represented include a time for children during the worship service. It was suggested that doing this well is a key to intergenerational worship. This time should address the children and not the congregation and should be a message to the children and not used to make announcements through the children. To be an intergenerational component of worship this time needs to be used well and those speaking need to be trained and have good resources.
Communion habits were discussed and the importance of children being present to see and ask about the tradition of the Lord’s Supper as well as the significance of their presence at baptisms was affirmed. As reminded in the early chapters of the text, throughout our history children have been present in worship. Children see, they ask, they learn.

Small details are important. Simple things like hearing devices, worship books, large print hymnals, and good ushers can make a big difference in the worship experiences of young and old alike.

The congregations represented in this group are different and not all ideas apply to each or are suitable for each. It was a consensus that it is important to be intentionally intergenerational and to reach out to all ages in worship.


Follow Up
On a recent Sunday in worship the minister was speaking of the tendency we have to take more than we need today in case it is not there to be had tomorrow. As illustration, she referred to wanting to fill our plates at church potlucks when we pass through the line because it may be gone later. She also spoke of hurrying to the next house when we are Trick or Treating hoping to get the best treats. Before the words Trick-or-Treating were hardly out of her mouth, a young father and his son sitting near the front of the church were elbowing each other. There was a visible similar reaction throughout the sanctuary. Later at one of those after church dinners, the pastor heard the father telling the mother, who was absent from worship leading a children’s program, about the sermon and the Trick-or-treating illustration. It was notably significant to them and special because it included all of them and at the same time, every member of the congregation could relate to the story.

Surrey Book Group (Tom's Group) - Third Meeting

Book Groups

We invited 34 book groups across the U.S. and Canada to meet and discuss The Church of All Ages and its implications for their worship, and to share their notes here.
Learn more

Report from Tom Bomhof's book group in Surrey, British Columbia:

Chapters 7 – 10

Preaching is so important in our Reformed tradition and it was good to read the chapter on it. We all agreed that many of our people are post-literate. That means we need to use images in preaching - engaging the eyes so that the listeners catch more of the message. Also, how do we make the Bible text come alive? Story-telling, using different versions, having someone recite the passage from memory. Our group shared stories of pastors who have done this effectively. Grace still remembers one pastor’s creative telling of the message thirty years ago.

Passion is a key word that we drew out of La Grave’s experience. We agreed that style does not capture the minds and hearts of teens, but it is passion. If a church is passionate about what it does, that church will retain its members, including youth. Sue talked about a pastor who had been passionate about including children and youth in worship. He remembered their names, spoke to them directly, and always gave encouragement when they helped in music or sound. Carolyn told how she encourages the youth who help with music.

We discussed the definition of worship as “relaxed joyful reverence.” We resonated with this definition and spoke about the fine balance between preparing well and being sloppy. Sometimes worship teams think that they don’t have to practice very much because they want it to have a natural, spontaneous feel to it. Yet they have to watch out for the “cringe factor” when things don’t work out.

We also wondered about rudeness in worship. In Chris’s church, some older people plug their ears when the drums get too loud. They sometimes grouse and criticize the worship teams. How do we foster openness and graciousness in worship? Chris said that this book has helped her be sensitive to these matters. And what about youth who move to other churches that are geared specifically to their cohort? What does that teach about the body of Christ and being gracious with each other?

We talked about who should be in charge of worship. Should it be a committee or a director? Grace said that there should be a committee. A worship director tends to take too much control and often takes too much heat. A committee can diffuse these things. It also gives the members yet another way to be involved in the church and helps them take ownership of the planning process.

We were challenged with some of the practical ideas near the end of the book. Carolyn’s church is about to go through a building program and she gained some good insights on p. 174 about what spaces may be needed. We ended with a sense of appreciation for this book and a renewed desire to plan intergenerational worship.

Denver Book Group - First Meeting

Book Groups

We invited 34 book groups across the U.S. and Canada to meet and discuss The Church of All Ages and its implications for their worship, and to share their notes here.
Learn more

Report from Joel Schreurs' book group in Denver, Colorado:

Key Question: Could ancient liturgy be a helpful tool for intergenerational worship?

If you want to attract the young folks, you’ve got to throw out all that stuffy tradition. Or so the accepted “wisdom” seems to have been during the last few decades. But John, a young seminary student, wasn’t quite so sure. “Haven’t the Roman Catholics had this intergenerational business down for centuries?” He asked. “It seems like they’d be great for kids. They’ve got alter boys involved at a young age, and surely the repetition of the liturgy must be a helpful teaching tool…” Tim, a former Missouri Synod Lutheran who now is a part of an independent Baptist congregation, agreed. “I remember being asked to light candles as a part of the liturgy as a ten year old boy,” he said. “That was huge!” Sam, a pastor/church planter in a young congregation that makes heavy use of the traditional liturgy (albeit with jazz instrumentation), appeared to like where the conversation was headed. “We find that in our setting—seeking to reach young, jaded, urbanites—the regular rhythms of the liturgy are less threatening than more ‘contemporary’ forms of worship. We can provide them with the language they need.” Sam went on to not that he believed that the use of a traditional liturgy was a wonderful way to teach people the language of faith. Nancy agreed, noting that hearing the same words spoken at different stages of her life and faith development had been tremendously beneficial to her. “I also believe,” she added, “that the liturgy is a way for the church to be consistent throughout all the generations—it’s a way to bridge what old and young (and all those in between!) do when we come together as God’s people.” While the group went on to note that differing contexts would demand differing applications the group seemed to agree—the prevailing wisdom of recent years may not have been that wise after all!

Mechanicsville Book Group - Second Meeting

Book Groups

We invited 34 book groups across the U.S. and Canada to meet and discuss The Church of All Ages and its implications for their worship, and to share their notes here.
Learn more

Report from Nancy Clark's book group in Mechanicsville, Virginia:

The group of five settled in with cookies and coffee for a friendly discussion focused on chapters 2-5 of The Church of All Ages.
Conversation began with discussion of the meaning and differences of terms such as” being included in worship,” “participating in worship,” and “present in worship.” Clearly presence does not equal participation. Any age can be present without feeling included or being allowed to participate. The big question seems to be how to include the ends of the spectrum without losing one end or the other.

The conversation moved to a discussion over the concept of unity as presented in chapter 2. Does unity necessitate intergenerational worship or does separate age geared worship encourages unity in a different sense? Is it possible to be together and separate? What about age and stage groups? Does unity mean doing worship together or being together in Christ?
Intergenerational worship is a goal but it was noted that some of the citations of scripture used supporting intergenerational were focused on teaching and telling (p25 in text as example). This goes beyond the one hour on Sunday. A good question raised was how we can make worship intergenerational throughout life and not just for the appointed hour of the week.
A key to intergenerational worship is being intentional in including all ages.

The music director shared ways in which she is intentional to include young people in a variety of ways in worship. Suggestions included having them provide special music (vocal or instrumental) special readings, and serving as liturgists. It was notable that she does not wait for them to volunteer. She seeks them out and welcomes them to participate.

A pastor shared that spotlighting youth can be effective. One idea was a living nativity that involves many ages and is well received by all ages. People love to see young people in these roles and young people like to participate. It is also important to remember that not every person engages with every element of worship. In planning worship the leadership team tries to engage as many as possible in the worship of God.

Oakland Book Group - Second Meeting

Book Groups

We invited 34 book groups across the U.S. and Canada to meet and discuss The Church of All Ages and its implications for their worship, and to share their notes here.
Learn more

Report from Russell Yee's book group in Oakland, California:

What is the relationship of children to adults in worship?

Cathy said: Some people see it preparing children for adult worship whereas it’s really children’s own worship, a human being worshipping God regardless of what age. Children can detect when they are given busy work, e.g., craft things that take up time when they may be ready for real participation through drama, art, music--

Bill rejoined: --like at a restaurant, when kids are given a coloring book and are told to color. I’d like to see us acknowledge their status and their ability to be free participants. I’d like the adults with the ability of music, dance and art to mentor children with those abilities and skills. Kids can tell if you really love them. What age workers are the best to work with kids? It doesn’t matter- you can be very old or young: if you love kids, they know it and they respond to you.

Teresa said: As the book emphasized, everyone should feel equally important in worship from the little kids to the seniors.. We should include kid-friendly art in some of our PowerPoint slides. We should have certain songs we sing each week that are familiar to kids, so that they feel equally included.

Cathy said: Adults can identify their own path and then also keep an eye out for giving kids an opportunity to develop their passions. For example, if you like gardening, don’t just do it yourself, invite a kid who’s ready.

Lara added: When we do baby dedications, church members covenant to be a part of the child’s life: It's not enough to say you’ll be taking a part in the child’s life and then not do anything about it. We’re not each called to reach out to everyone but to have some involvement with a child or a few children. We feel there are certain people called children’s ministry and I think that’s unfair. I started out not called but just because there was a need and then slowly gained more experience.

Jeremy observed: Maybe if adults aren’t clear on what to do they might get overwhelmed. Sometimes if you give adults exact instructions [e.g., for storytelling in Children's Ministry] and a definite sense of how much commitment you're asking for, some would be more likely to give it a try.

Russ added: All true--but, nevertheless, for many adults, especially parents of young children, that 45 minutes during the service when the kids are in Children's ministry is maybe the only time during the whole week that they have a focused, undistracted uninterrupted experience of prayer, Scripture, and worship.